Ep. 44 Jay Toups Bioroot Energy & The Future of Alcohol Based Fuels

Jay Toups has guided Bioroot Energy from inception to one of today’s best positioned clean energy startups. His interest in alcohol fuels began in 2007 with his work for Big Sky Coalition, a Montana non-profit dedicated to improving forest management practices. The organization’s goal to “do something about overgrown forests, rural community jobs and the environment” continues with the Bioroot Energy focus on advanced alcohol fuel production.

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(Disclaimer: The transcript that follows has been generated using artificial intelligence. We strive to be as accurate as possible, but minor errors and slightly off timestamps may be present due to platform differences.)

Eric Malzone: Welcome to the black diamond podcast.

Jay Toups: Good morning, Eric.

Eric Malzone: I am excited for this. This is a, I think you and I let's see, today's a, it's the beginning of 2021 here. We're in January 5th and you're not connected a few months ago. And during that conversation, you blew my mind about what you're doing with bio roots and your background and ,  the sheer potential of what you're doing to reshape.

I guess humanity. Is that too big of a thing to say? It's I don't think it is, but yeah, man, just Jay, thank you for making the time. I know you're out also in rural Montana, sir, for you to dial in, especially during a snow event in January ,  to make it to this podcast. I really appreciate all the effort to do that as well, but ,  yeah, ,  let's start with this, man.

Give us your background. How'd you get to, to found bio roots and then we'll talk about what it is that you're actually doing now.

Jay Toups: You bet. bioroot  are value proposition to the world is really straightforward. We're here to help humanity change everything, or let's say deepen its understanding of everything we know about what's in the nearest trashcan and I'm willing to bet my life that everyone listening is within a dozen or so feet of a trashcan.

This is the elephant and everyone, the room that ,  seldom gets any ,  any currency ,  in terms of discussion, public discourse. What are we doing with all of these materials that never really comes up and truth be told if these were snakes, we'd be dead already, but they're not snakes.

They're trash trashcan. So how I came to found. By our energy is a story and it's ,  in itself, I moved here from downtown salt Lake city ,  working as a technology developer for a company called Novell and Novell was a networking giant for many years and worked in their developer organization for many years.

And was good enough at my craft that I could pretty much work from anywhere. So I've made that call to move from the urban environment to ,  we'll call it ,  certainly a rural environment. I actually live in the Bitterroot national forest, about 40 miles from the nearest traffic light at the end of a dirt road.

I've been working from home for 22 years and it is heavily forested here. Call it a dog here for us for a good reason. It is a fire suppressed overgrown forest of about two and a half million acres of trees and wild land. Urban interface is around the Bitterroot Valley all the way up to Missoula and heading South towards salmon, which then is contiguous with the other national forest.

The salmon challenge, the Bitterroot cell way and the Beaver head deer lodge. About a year after I moved up here, there was a major fire event in year, 2000, that burned about one half million acres. And that was a, I call it a traumatic event ,  because it was, I didn't lose my property. I did have friends that lost theirs and I had at one point fire on six points of the compass, three of them visible ,  for more than a week.

And it's quite a sobering event to watch trees ,  crown fires going on consistently and watching Ponderosa Pines popping off like Jemmy and Roman candles ,  and watching your forest go up in smoke. And the takeaway from that was. What's wrong with this picture. I understand that fire is part of the forest regime.

We need fire, but why are these fires so intense and why are they damaging in ways that historically fires have not been typically fire is ,  is a benign influence in forest regimes, ,  in taking out the undergrowth and what we'll call ladder fuels and so on and so forth. And in my due diligence discovered that we've been putting out fires for well over a century, being very aggressive with fire suppression ,  at a national federal state and local level in that has led to.

Essentially over the century to Forrest regimes, that we don't really relate to ,  pre modern conditions where the average acre of forest may have had 20 mature trees on it. Now you may have as many as 200 or 300 trees. All competing for space, sunlight, water, and so forth. And these are the Tinder boxes of ,  the unintended consequences of the policy, nature of fire ,  fire suppression.

If you put out every fire, then. Fire does not have a chance to work at low intensity. And so what fires do happen are high-intensity stand replacing or completely destroying folk forest environments. And we see this all over the world. I just happened to have a front row seat to it in the Bitterroot Valley, but certainly what has happened in Australia a couple of years ago, with 45 million acres lost.

And in Siberia, which was at 48 million acres last summer ,  the events ,  and ,  California has certainly been a front row seat for 40 million California residents for what happens when. Climate is the forcing mechanism that is calling this all into question of does fire suppression work?

Can we burn our way out of this with controlled burns? Can we re-introduce fire safely, too. To grasslands, forest lands and so forth, or do we need to do some mechanical treatment ,  to reduce these fuels to appropriate levels before we can. Re-introduce the traditional ,  indigenous view of forest management of ,  we can burn off this couple of hundred acres on a good day.

Provided it doesn't spin out of control and the conditions are, or supportive of being able to have a low intensity fire by our route was formed to essentially put a price on what is typically piled in burned in forest management or what we'll call a fuels reduction. If somebody comes in ,  they brush.

And log a stand of ,  forest, let's say a long ,  alongside a community, a wild land, urban interface. There's typically going to be a lot of waste Woody biomass, which is not marketable in today's markets ,  which is then piled and burned. Typically at taxpayer expense, there is no value creation whatsoever.

It is of course, very dirty and the. It's essentially ,  begging the do, does anything ever really go away when we burn it? And the answer is no, it goes to the sky. These carbons are converted from wood fibers to ,  to CO2 and then the bevy of particulates that you would typically find in Woodsmoke, which is very toxic in its own.

Fire route is looking to put a price on carbon that spans the gamut from gases carbonaceous gases, like methane, carbon dioxide, also solid and liquid carbons. And that would be anything in a trash can. Anything on a forest floor hand, I'm going to go and get 20 to be a bit graphic and say anything in a toilet.

The ability to price carbon by not leaving anything out and taking all of these diverse carbons from diverse sources and training them in a zero emissions synthesis process that essentially converts them from something nobody wants. And we're all keen to get rid of in one form or fashion ,  to something.

The world really needs, which are alcoholics and our business is the production. The synthesis of. Of a range of alcohols that is then usable eminently usable in any gasoline or diesel engine as a replacement for petroleum. And that would be either a replacement for unleaded gasoline, or as a replacement for diesel fuels.

Or jet fuel or what have you. These are water soluble, biodegradable, alcohols. They have enormous value. You can pour them on the ground or spill them on the ground. And instead of it being a licensing event for whatever microorganisms are in that patch of ground, Alcohols are actually food for microorganisms.

They can consume it because these are linear and simple alcohols. They are biodegradable in that sense. That is our ,  that is our chain of value creation that is extensible in every direction. One cares to look. Every city has a landfill, or it has a regional repository where waste go to die, which they never really do.

These ,  these repositories of carbon are worldwide. They typically off gas and decompose for hundreds to thousands of years. And it's no accident that landfills contribute about 15% of all of the atmospheric methane emissions in the world. Two ,  there we'll call them fugitive emissions ,  along with similar volumes of CO2.

So while we're all chasing. Gas reductions through, ,  let's call them putative taxes on fossil energy to ,  to rein in energy emissions from let's say refine or to coal burners and so forth. There are these. Very diverse and ,  diffused carbon repositories, which are, I don't want to say they're completely unregulated, but they are not well managed.

Landfill is a study in how 20th century ,  convenience has led to 21st century headache. And that is our ,  that is our value model  on the ground for communities. And I would take Missoula Montana as a good example of a small, progressive ,  university driven, ,  city of a hundred. And. A hundred thousand people surrounded by a very large amount of forest and rural communities.

I live about 100 miles from Missoula. And when I put something in your trashcan here, that's where it winds up. There you go. It has to be trucked in the will to go into the landfill. And of course ,  it, it doesn't pay for anyone to truck there. Woody biomass, if you're a landowner to the dump, people just pile it and burn it because it's more expeditious to just get rid of it on site, by putting a match to it.

I have four acres of trees and my, my ,  Personal property here and maintaining that four acres is a challenge. And you do what you need to do. And conveniently a piling and burning is that is the go-to method for these worthless materials. And I'm talking about pine needles, barks, branches, tones, small diameter trees, all the things that have no real value.

In the world. And I started the company to put a price on what people think of as worthless, because it's not, it's essentially a stored energy value whose value can be. Responsibly extracted and the one caveat here is that it cannot be done at garage scale. You cannot build a gasification to gas, to liquid fuel synthesis project ,  in a garage or a gas station or something like that.

These are a refinery scale. Build that ,  that are appropriate to the scale of the problems we're talking about for communities or regions for industries. So it is big. It is hairy ,  in ,  the arrival of a new alcohol fuel in a world that has already seen ,  What we'll call commodity alcohols like corn ethanol or sugarcane ethanol.

People tend to think that the end of the road for alcohol, when in fact it's really like gen one and the big bang has got to happen. And that big bang is the thermal synthesis of all carbons to produce, not just one alcohol like corn ethanol, which is the C2 molecule. It has two carbon atoms. Methanol for example, has one carbon molecule.

We will be producing C1 through C eight alcohols, which ,  me, it checks all the boxes for what is the ideal liquid fuel, both in terms of energy density and the diversity of resources that can be used to produce it. And that is ,  maybe one of our biggest inhibitors is there is nobody in front of us.

There is no competitive ecosystem around higher mixed alcohol fuel yet. We will be first and it is the harder to be first by an order of magnitude, then it will to be second, third, fifth. And I will rejoice when we see projects going up in major metropolitan areas. And I would take Mexico city, for example, with 25 million people, will they ever run out of trash?

The answer is no. Will they ever run out of a need for. Commodity alcohols to power engines to ,  to produce chemicals, green biochemicals. The answer is no, or will, or for a need for cooking and heating. The answer is no. And so the forward looking ,  view of this is breathtaking for anyone who has time to wrap their head around it.

And typically that is what we like to do with people is go slowly. With due diligence and answer all questions because there are always, a lot of them are typically, there are a lot of them to work from that basis of common understanding, fill in blanks as we go. So

Eric Malzone: a couple of questions I have for you, Jay is  you mentioned, corn ethanol ,  and ,  w what are those alcohol based fuels being used for now?

Like w what is the extent that people are used to using these alcohol based fuels?

Jay Toups: Everyone who is driving a car in the United States that is using unleaded, gasoline is typically consuming gasoline or burning gasoline, which contains up to 10% corn ethanol, which is used as a blend stock or additive to gasoline to essentially improve the tailpipe emissions.

,  alcohols are very energy dense and they're added to ,  corn ethanol is added to unleaded gasoline to essentially raise the octane level ,  to avoid engine knock, which ,  people don't hear engine knock anymore, but there was a time ,  before corn ethanol, when the ,  the oil refiners do something called Tetra ethyl led.

To ,  raise the octane rating and eliminate engine knock. And course it was a big problem there because led is very tired. Tetra SLS was taken out completely out of the gasoline supply by the mid 1980s. And that led to ,  led the refiners and especially. Government and the EPA to look for additives that could raise the octane level of gasoline ,  and replace ,  replace that Tetra ethylene, which had been removed.

And there were a couple of curse, three attempts to buy refiners to produce what is called methyl, tertiary, butyl, ether ,  which was another, not so nice. We'll call it an oxygen. As it is to gasoline and that wound up contaminating ground water. It wasn't biodegradable. It too was banned ,  in the mid eighties ,  which led and opened the door to the corn lobby ,  for the corn lobby to present to Washington a deal that Washington really couldn't refuse because ,  it's the corn lobby we could produce.

Lots and lots of farmers can produce lots and lots of corn, which could then be batch fermented using the beer kit method, essentially. Just like you would make beer, ,  wine or whiskey, or excuse me, beer anyway ,  that, that worn lobby could scale up corn ethanol and that has happened and they've enjoyed some success, but in that.

A 20 year period from the first real scale up of alcohol's began in the mid two thousands with the recovery act under the Bush administration. And that was what really led to billions of gallons of corn ethanol being blended into the unleaded gasoline fuel supply. So everybody's driving alcohols already in small amounts.

And of course, every gas pump says may have a pump that says may contain up to three, 10%. Corn ethanol in the Midwest, there are higher volume pumps. You may have 25, 35 up to 85% corn ethanol and 15% gasoline. And it's a function of supply. And just one problem. You're growing an annual crop to make beer.

Essentially, and then you take the water out and what remains is one alcohol and there's an inherent limitation there because well, it's one alcohol and two, it is only going in as fractional, ,  attitudes to unleaded gas. And what about. The rest of the fuel pool, and that would be diesel and jet fuel unleaded gasoline with benzene in it premium gasoline may not have any ethanol.

It will have benzene, which is cancer causing ,  to raise that octane rating there. A lot of holes in Americas. Biofuel approaches because we've essentially picked the winner with the corn lobby ,  producing corn ethanol. And this is mirrored by the situation in Brazil, which Brazil is even further down the road.

Oh of ,  producing ethanol from sugar cane and at much higher blend volumes, but the net effect is the same. You have plenty of land use issues by doing landscape scale cultivation of in that case sugar cane ,  with the attendant, ,  runoff pollution issues ,  here in the States, we've got dead zone problems in the Gulf of Mexico.

Due to large scale ,  big boy and corn farming in the Mississippi river Valley. And all of that comes down the Mississippi river and the hypoxic zones in the Northern Gulf of Mexico are tremendous. There is no oxygen there, so there is no life. And these are some of the issues that ,  We will not be recording because we're, we will not be needing to grow anything.

And what we're fond of observing is that we want everyone to think of this fuel is well, I'm a crap farm, right? What does everybody produce? We all produce our share of crap. Yes, we get up in the morning. We have a bowel movement that we, yeah, we have breakfast and we're opening packages and it's all going where trash cans and toilets, which, these are pastoring mechanisms for out of sight, out of mind, we're the mill lined up.

They wind up right back in the environment that we're trying to. Keep from killing us. I say killing us because th the looming question here is what are we going to do about climate change and emissions and air water, and land pollution. No, we have the luxury of landfilling a lot of materials in the United States ,  other countries ,  we'll take Bangladesh for example.

And most of that country is right at sea level. It's very difficult to bury trash at sea level because you're in the water table. And this is a desperate problem in much of Asia there isn't good waste management. And even when there is good waste management, their physical limits too. Where are we going to put all this trash?

Because in all honesty, when New York city asked to re train loads of human excrement to Alabama to put it in a landfill, and we're not talking about trash, we're talking about just biosolids human excrement ,  the final by-product of wastewater treatment in Alabama landfill, the logistics of that ,  or, their Dawn.

I think is best. And are they sustainable? The answer is absolutely not. And China's closing the door on the imports of  recyclable scrap in 2018, they called it operation. National sword was essentially ,  the up years of China to the rest of the world saying, ,  we've been your garbage. Processor for 20, 25 years.

Now our middle-class is big enough that we don't need four in garbage. So they turned off the inputs and this is essentially been ,  the coup de Gras on the recycling industry, as we have traditionally understood it and practiced it. And the recycling industry is functionally dead in the water because that's that go-to mechanism of it.

Exporting, ,  volumes, large volumes of materials is now gone. And so the pressure is on landfills in ways that are difficult to really appreciate it until you begin to go study, let's say the Northeastern quadrant of the United States and studies a landfill situation. In those Northeastern States, it is quite dire and this is a pressure which is not going to be relieved by any traditional.

Means there needs to be some end of life solution for all these carbons that is not currently in market. And that is, are a bit , 

Eric Malzone: so fast forward for me, J ,  I don't know, let's pick a timeline 10 years from now, right? You got, everything's running well for your projected timeline, your hopeful timeline.

What does that look like? What is this ,  This technology going to eventually look like paint us a picture.

Jay Toups: Let's talk about the economic multipliers. We have job creation at the local regional level in energy production in waste management and carbon management that is deeply empowering in ways that.

It country burning gasoline and maintaining a military force to secure energy resources from all the way across the world. Maybe we're obviating ,  more and more of that need to be the world's policeman to protect oil supplies, because we have brought home ,  and scaled up an energy methodology, which ,  is not only cleaner, but long-term more profitable and beneficial for ,  the citizenry that, ,  But that just makes sense.

It's logical and 10 years out, we're talking about ,  the development of projects ,  in all 50 States that are proximal to the largest landfills in those States, or they are bioregional, they are centralized so that, ,  logistics of feed, stock, transport, and feed stock, as in waste, whatever those wastes are to a centralized, ,  centralized project and the production of the fuel leading that, that project.

And then simply being dropped into the nearest ,  onto the nearest highway in whatever vehicles have a need for it. And. In with petroleum networks ,  because there, there are some functional specifications with the fuel that are very important to understand this fuel requires nobody's changed any vehicles, gasoline, or diesel.

They stay the same. That's huge, nor any changes to ,  distribution infrastructure. Of petroleum, this fuel can be pipelined with or without oil. It can be, ,  what is called splash blended like corn ethanol ,  with gasoline, which typically corn ethanol is blended at the point of distribution ,  because alcohols are water grabbers and they.

They ,  they're disparate from oils. And in that sense that we're also very different than Cornell ethanol, but back to the, where are we going to be in 10 years? Hopefully it will be a lot wiser about carbon. We will be challenging the assertion that there is ,  a future in traditional waste management, which is something not many people really want to think about.

How long has it been since you've been to a landfill?

Eric Malzone: Just a couple of weeks ago. But I, yeah, we don't pay for a trash pickup. So I, so it's, it's interesting because I resonated with this because once when we did move to Montana, we, most of the places that we've rented so far ,  and when we build our house, we won't have trash service because, ,  I liked to know how much trash we're producing and then having to take the extra step of driving it.

To the dump ,  that the, cause it, just where you're talking about, otherwise it's just too easy. Like you just don't, you don't recognize wow. And then when you go to a landfill, you're like, Holy cow, there's a lot of stuff being dumped in here every day.

Jay Toups: And here we are with the pandemic.

This is gas on the fire. Is that the exponential nature of consumption and dumping. Now we're not leaving home. We don't know where all of this stuff goes, but of course it go to landfills or incinerators. And my other big beef here with ,  the waste management industry is that it's nothing.

If not expeditious, when you run out of a landfill, you burn it, you build a trash burner, burn trash. We are not a trash burning play. We're not a smokestack business. There are no smokestacks in mixed alcohol architecture, and it is a functionally zero emission process. This incineration is the go-to pathway for what's beyond traditional landfill.

And this is practiced. Worldwide, especially in Asia, in Europe ,  Europe has ,  for many decades built when he's to energy incinerators, the country has with Sweden, for example, 10 million people incinerates, virtually all of its trash to make a little bit of power and a little bit of heat. W which they have advantages for, because Stockholm, which is the biggest city in Sweden has a centralized heating district, which is very rare in the urban.

The urban landscape of what the cities  it's, every building is its own heat ,  consumer and ,  that sort of thing. So with centralized, heating, just occur is very rare. And at the end of the day, you still got about 30 to 40% of that material. Which has hazardous Ash, which is very toxic, which then must be landfilled somewhere.

And we cannot burn our way out of this carbon mess with regard to, ,  municipal waste. And so the 10 years out, we're just getting started. We see ,  it taking as long as 100 years to. Supplant traditional waste management with ,  with this value creation model that is basically a 21st century answer to one of mankind's oldest problems.

What do I do with my crap? The larger, the scale, the more poignant. The, both the outcome and the rationale for having made these moves while we could still think about making these moves because that window is in danger of closing. We are in danger of toxifying, this planet ,  past the point of redemption.

It is entirely possible for. 7.8 billion people to poison this planet again, past our point of being able to hang on if ,  if for no other reason that we've made conditions for life untenable at ,  the single celled organism level that's phytoplankton and all the way up to the top of the food chain and that's us and put everything at risk by essentially making water.

Air and land toxic enough to, ,  I don't want to say exterminate life, but this is before we even fry from climate change. So these threats, and this is a threat that I struggle to even get an audience in Washington with because the focus going forward, especially with the Biden administration is going to be on.

On the reduction of emissions and not a whole lot of effort being given to the economics of carbon. That is beyond gases. What are we doing with trash garbage? Would he buy on that? Which started the conversation with ,  with bio-solids, which is wastewater treatment and so forth. There isn't a lot of policy development along these fronts, and there's no infrastructure whatsoever other than these 20th century.

Models, which are ,  I don't want to say they're like, I will say they're horribly flawed in there. And with the world that we need to live in, which is a zero waste world. And that is our challenge. As a company is blow it as you use the word blowing people's minds. If we're not surprising ourselves, we're not really innovating because I think that's the upshot here.

There is so much innovation that can come of this. That it would be a shame that ,  I would say a real shame that we would blink and miss it because it's so big. So Jay,

Eric Malzone: At this point in time ,  January of 20, 21 ,  what do you need? What's the most important thing for you right now to get this thing moving forward?


Jay Toups: you bet. You bet. We need people to inform themselves. At first and foremost, it's very difficult to work ,  to raise capital and develop ,  advertorial or advisory and board ,  positions with people who. I don't want to impune anyone's intelligence, but almost nobody knows what's in gasoline.

What are the, what is the componentry of gasoline? The actual compounds in gasoline, because in my experience, if they knew what was in gasoline, they would cry and they couldn't use it. But nobody knows it's in gasoline because well, gasoline is made on the fly it's made from whatever pieces and parts, a refiners God.

And there could be. As many as a hundred to 150 different talk to calm down in a gallon of gasoline. So it's a moving target and it's we're all spraying each other with raid. So this is a real problem. The toxicity here of a tailpipe pointed back at you in the car in front of you is a very big deal.

So informing oneself about. Future friendly options, cleaner options. We are ,  We start there because those are our strongest ,  financial and community partners or people who've done their own due diligence about ,  is this a good thing? And why, and there's a keener understanding then that, Oh, they're a biofuel company.

We're not a biofuel company. This is not it. This is not a me too biofuel. This is a replacement for petroleum and a fixed for garbage. That is ,  that consumes a large part of my ,  outreach with people is just this infill of. Of ,  there is potential here and here's why we should all slow down and wrap our heads around it.

And just imagine something you're in Kalispell or near Kalispell, imagine a similar project ,  servicing the entire Flathead Valley from Canada down to the Zula. Okay. And eating all of these waste carbons in ,  to put that in perspective, there is a land, a tire dump in Polson, Montana ,  called the tire Depot.

It's on the Flathead Indian reservation. It has about 32 million tires in the ground. They take it and waste ,  spent or old tires from six Western States. And the carbon repositories are all around us. And so what I need are informed people who are, ,  they put waste above the line in terms of, am I paying attention to this or not?

They think maybe more like a producer and less ,  a consumer dumper as it were, because dumping is the out of sight out of mind. It's not my problem now it's the trash company's problem or what have you  and we are currently raising two and a half million ,  on our seed round that is pursuant to about a $30 million series, a raise on project one and project two for us.

It's about a $200 million project. And those first two projects will form the presumptive or prototype ,  platforms for major. Major build-out in a large metropolitan areas like San Francisco, Seattle. And these will be cap ex of, in the billions, because that is scale of both the resource availability and also of the addressable market.

You've got to be able to produce large volumes of fuel at a price point. That is competitive. With gasoline and diesel. And that is ,  that is the hat-trick of going from small to, to, ,  appropriate scale ,  so that you may enter markets and address them. Financially. And ,  also ,  I want to say ethically because there is this, I think there's a real flight in people's minds to, I want to clean up my act, but I don't know how right.

And this is how. I wish that it could be personal. And my job of course, is running, leading and being founder of the company. But the identification with the problem need not be well, start your own company. We can join an effort because we share a common, ,  set of risks. We all breathe the same rudder and use the same air and ,  breathe the same air and drink the same water.

Pardon me. And we live on contiguous ground and the health of these ,  these ,  indispensable parts of the environment ,  is everybody's business. How are we looking out for the dirt under our feet, the air over our head and the water. That course is through us and ,  all around us ,  because rivers do run through a lot of life here in Montana and indeed the human body, we are ,  pretty much, in flow with ,  moisture in the air around us, the Lotter, we have to consume so much water and I'll shut up after saying that.

The chief, one of the chief byproducts of our synthesis process in the production of higher mixed alcohol fuel is pure distilled.

Eric Malzone: That's amazing.

Jay Toups: Yeah, there is a, there is going to be there. You've got aquifers, which are depleting the Ogallala in the Midwest ,  all over the world. The California central Valley. We can take wastewater and use three gallons of wastewater or gray water, and we use one gallon. We will consume one gallon of that wastewater in the production of the fuel and return two gallons as still water, because our process is a superheated steam driven process.

And at the end, you've got water that can go back into ,  the groundwater and recharge aquifers, or it can be bottled. It can be what have you. But that is the ,  I don't want to say the hat trick, but it's not just a fuel. It is a ,  A way of addressing some real physical needs that we all have, and that, that are not going to change.

Even with the advent and scale up of large amounts of electric vehicles. We will still be seeing internal combustion for many decades into the future. And ,  That ,  there's nothing we can really do about that, but we can clean up the fuels and the CO2 offsets for higher mixed alcohol fueled.

We use something called the greet ,  model, which is a transportation life cycle emissions analysis developed by Oregon national laboratories. And comparing mixed alcohol with unleaded gasoline, we see carbon offsets of ,  at the low end, 88% less CO2 on a life cycle. Basis to as high as 112%, depending on which feed stocks you're producing the fuel from, but that is the entire life cycle of, ,  two wheels.

It's not just the tailpipe. It is the embodied emissions of extraction recommendation. Distribution and then end use, we spank everybody. And this is what people, when they understand that they jumped for joy, because that is maybe the biggest missing piece of the renewable energy puzzle. Is it liquid fuel, which is congruent with today's world.

Nobody has to change anything that this just works. And that  that is our key value proposition for anyone looking at the emissions ,  as the big bugaboo. And of course it is, but it's not the only bug.

Eric Malzone: Oh man. There's a, I can. Listen to you talk about this all day. It's really exciting.

It's  I don't envy the challenges of getting this out there. I think patience is the name of the game for you and persistence. Obviously you don't have any shortage of that. So when people hear this and they want to get involved ,  what's the best way for them to get in touch with

Jay Toups: you, Jay.

You bet. Bio root energy.com P I O R double O T energy.com and ,  our contact page. We do answer our own phones. We have ,  We have all of the modern technology. But we like to establish dialogue that is measured and deliberately moving through, ,  with ,  What does this person know?

What is their interest factor? And we'll pick up from that point, because we're not just looking to bloviate, we're looking to get to know ,  people who and integrate with their understanding. So we don't create any, ,  any dissonance in terms of their awareness or their scientific understanding ,  or of markets understanding that there are a lot of pieces and parts to this.

And so we, we try to work with everyone as an individual, rather than treating people as herd animals. And we love to form relationships because that's what it's going to take. If someone does not ,  if a potential investor does not trust us ,  it means we failed to get them to trust themselves because this is what we're asking people to do is in, from themselves well enough to validate our claims for their own satisfaction.

Because we can't sell this to anyone. This is one of these things that you either decide for yourself that this is a good idea and support it, or you wish us luck and it's not for you. And this is what we try to do is get people to play in a realm that. Not many people playing. Whoever thought they would be in the garbage business or the forestry business or the liquid fuel business or the alcohol fuel ,  the alcohol fuel industry.

And what is this higher mixed alcohol fuel? Anyway, it's a new world. And so we're ,  we're very patient. We have to be ,  with bringing people up to speed, but what we do now, the longer someone learns ,  typically the more ,  the more enthusiastic they become, because they're essentially fueling your own desire for change and seeing that potential in our work.

And that's the upshot. So we love the inbound interest. I encourage everyone who visits our website to read it or endorsements page. And these are citizen and professional endorsements from all kinds of people, foresters, engineers, doctors, lawyers. Because what I had learned as the business leader is that what holds us back, isn't really so much of a money problem as it is a giant social problem, mired in lack of trust, because there are scientific gaps, typically that.

We can't, I can't fill that the scientific gap of another person. I can certainly serve up the appropriate information and through Q and a and discovery help fill in any blanks. And that endorsements page does a good job of explaining if people explaining in their own. W words how they came to know of us, why they support us in what they are learning through that process.

And I call it an emotional investment, which is. Maybe even more valuable than money, because if you don't have somebody who's heart and mind in the same ,  in the same relationship, then you really, ,  it's not just money. It's, there's something more at stake here than just

Eric Malzone: awesome. Jay, thank you so much for coming on.

,  I learned a lot. I'm inspired by what you do. And ,  I think like most people listen to this, you gotta be anti-human to not want to get on board. ,  I really appreciate, yeah, really appreciate your time. And ,  I would love to check back and, six to 12 months to see how this whole thing is going.


Jay Toups: it'd be my pleasure.

Eric Malzone: Awesome. Ladies and gentlemen

Jay Toups

Jay Toups: and thank you all.


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